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This is racism .....  

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Clubmaker
(@Clubmaker)
Lobo

"  I know because I'll be immediately asked what I'm doing in that area."

when driving, and particularly later in the day or evening, Police frequently ask people what they are doing or where they are going.   And almost certainly, if they can get you to say anything close to bar, party, game with tailgate,  or restaurant they are going to really start looking to see if they can justify more in checking out a potential dui.  

Eventually, i hope the practice of  misleading comments by police at dui checkpoints, will be banned from police policy.   Police try to talk people of all colors out of their right to remain silent, and right to not self incriminate, by saying things repeatedly  like "well, we are just trying to be safe"..."the courts have ruled i can ask you that question"  (trying to suggest that means the court said you had to answer it, which is an entirely different issue..). Many folks seem to defend it because, well, we want to stop dui.  Well, when does the practice of police misleading people and misleading them out of their rights end?  How can police do this, and it would seem this likely then happens in some other areas also,  and then those same police still supposedly  also be, our friends and neighbors doing community policing, with emphasis on friends and neighbors?   You can't have it both ways. 

 

 

This post was modified 6 days ago by Clubmaker
ReplyQuote
Posted : June 28, 2020 11:56 am
UWS
 UWS
(@uws)
Lobo Lobo level
Posted by: @julieg

UWS, do you actually believe this?

Also, police need reasonable suspicion to pull you over. They cannot arbitrarily stop you without some fact that indicates you have violated the law or committed a traffic violation. During the times you say that you were stopped for driving while black, did you ever file a complaint?

UWS, do you actually believe this?

 

Julie,

Police need to have at least a reasonable suspicion that a crime is in progress, or has been committed, or that a traffic violation has taken place before they can pull you over.

This is not my belief. Its the LAW !!! It's a FACT !!! 

 

"So before people start re-writing history, they should first learn what the history is." UWS

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 28, 2020 9:34 pm
UNMerciful_1
(@unmerciful_1)
Pack Leader Lobo level
Posted by: @Clubmaker

"  I know because I'll be immediately asked what I'm doing in that area."

when driving, and particularly later in the day or evening, Police frequently ask people what they are doing or where they are going.   And almost certainly, if they can get you to say anything close to bar, party, game with tailgate,  or restaurant they are going to really start looking to see if they can justify more in checking out a potential dui.  

Eventually, i hope the practice of  misleading comments by police at dui checkpoints, will be banned from police policy.   Police try to talk people of all colors out of their right to remain silent, and right to not self incriminate, by saying things repeatedly  like "well, we are just trying to be safe"..."the courts have ruled i can ask you that question"  (trying to suggest that means the court said you had to answer it, which is an entirely different issue..). Many folks seem to defend it because, well, we want to stop dui.  Well, when does the practice of police misleading people and misleading them out of their rights end?  How can police do this, and it would seem this likely then happens in some other areas also,  and then those same police still supposedly  also be, our friends and neighbors doing community policing, with emphasis on friends and neighbors?   You can't have it both ways. 

 

@clubmaker Police in LA county pulled over my car at 1 in the afternoon with me and 3 other black guys inside.   We were all in the Navy at the time and our ship had just docked in Long Beach for the first time.  Being new to the area we decided to drive around and check out the area.  We were driving in a very nice residential area when we were pulled over.  I feel comfortable saying the police weren't asking us why we were there because they thought we might be coming from a bar at 1pm.

@UWS One thing your "racism richter scale does not take into account is the cumulative effect of being on the receiving end of racism.  Any individual event may not be of consequence when looked at in isolation, but one can only take so many pin pricks, paper cuts or bruises.  You don't get CTE on your first blow to the head.  It takes repeated blows to cause that.  I didn't get to be the way I am because of one instance of racism.  There have been hundreds.

@JulieG I did not file any complaints.  Most of the driving while black stops happened when I was in my 20s.  I didn't feel a complaint by me would do anything to change things.  I would most definitely make a complaint today.  I would also have the incident recorded.  I place my cell phone in my drink holder and I start recording every time I'm pulled over. I started doing that about 5 years ago.  You can never be too safe. 

This post was modified 5 days ago by UNMerciful_1
ReplyQuote
Posted : June 28, 2020 9:51 pm
JulieG
(@julieg)
Contributor

@uws

You live in a much different world than I have been exposed to.

JulieG
Loyal Lobo fan since 1962

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 28, 2020 10:04 pm
UWS
 UWS
(@uws)
Lobo Lobo level
Posted by: @julieg

@uws

You live in a much different world than I have been exposed to.

How so?

This post was modified 5 days ago by UWS

"So before people start re-writing history, they should first learn what the history is." UWS

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 29, 2020 3:53 am
zoom
 zoom
(@zoom)
Pack Leader

curious how many times is that...you paint police and any race but yours with a very broad brush just as you condemn others for supposedly doing the same when it comes to race...

I start recording every time I'm pulled over.

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 29, 2020 5:17 am
JulieG
(@julieg)
Contributor

@uws

It has all the elements of a fantasy. It is evident that even if you leave your ordered world to venture out that you have missed what others have experienced. To have belief that everything is ordered and no one does anything contrary to the law on the enforcement side is naive at best. Much of what has taken place since the Floyd murder and yes, it was murder, has brought scrutiny to the issue of how the legal system works when it is not operating as it should. This isn't new and it doesn't just apply to black relations. Reality is much messier than your statement about how relations between the police and those they police operate.

JulieG
Loyal Lobo fan since 1962

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 29, 2020 7:25 am
Miguelnavida, abqpianist, UNMerciful_1 and 1 people liked
UNMerciful_1
(@unmerciful_1)
Pack Leader Lobo level
Posted by: @zoom

curious how many times is that...you paint police and any race but yours with a very broad brush just as you condemn others for supposedly doing the same when it comes to race...

I start recording every time I'm pulled over.

It's been 3 times in the past 5 years.  I have said that it's probably only a small percentage of police committing these heinous acts.  However, the problem lies with the so called good cops who don't stand up to them.  Show me instances where police have stood up to those bad cops in their units, and I'll consider revising my stance.  And I'm not talking about officer who came out against the Floyd killing even thought it's interesting the only 14 officers in the Minneapolis police department did so.  You had 3 officers on scene as a murder was in progress, and they did nothing to stop it.   Here some where they actively support them:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/13/us/why-police-rally-around-each-other-trnd/index.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/25/us/wilmington-police-officers-fired.html

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/laquan-mcdonald/ct-graphics-laquan-mcdonald-officers-fired-timeline-htmlstory.html

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 29, 2020 8:07 am
MaxLobo
(@maxlobo)
Member
Posted by: @zoom

curious how many times is that...you paint police and any race but yours with a very broad brush just as you condemn others for supposedly doing the same when it comes to race...

I start recording every time I'm pulled over.

Zoom, that's a ridiculous comment.  If anyone's been harassed by the cops enough times they are going to take measures to protect themselves from the experience repeating.   This is one area (cops specifically harassing people of color while they are simply passing through) where the data do speak loud and clear....its a real problem.   Setting up a 'camera' just in case something bad happens during a traffic stop in absolutely no way adversely affects the cops...if they are doing a good and decent job it will only protect the cops from potentially inaccurate accusations (which is why body cams should be required for all cops at all times). 

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 29, 2020 8:19 am
UWS
 UWS
(@uws)
Lobo Lobo level
Posted by: @julieg

@uws

It has all the elements of a fantasy. It is evident that even if you leave your ordered world to venture out that you have missed what others have experienced. To have belief that everything is ordered and no one does anything contrary to the law on the enforcement side is naive at best. Much of what has taken place since the Floyd murder and yes, it was murder, has brought scrutiny to the issue of how the legal system works when it is not operating as it should. This isn't new and it doesn't just apply to black relations. Reality is much messier than your statement about how relations between the police and those they police operate.

I'll try to clear this up.

Unmerciful said he had been pulled over many times for simply driving while black. 

I reminded him that if police are doing that, they are violating the law. It is unconstitutional for police to engage in racial profiling. 

IMO, when police violate the law, they need to be held accountable by the filing of a complaint. That's why I asked him if he ever filed a complaint. This indicates that I am certainly aware that police violate the law. 

I don't get it. What about any of this indicates that I am living in a fantasy world ? 

 

"So before people start re-writing history, they should first learn what the history is." UWS

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 29, 2020 4:36 pm
JulieG
(@julieg)
Contributor

UWS, depending upon where you live and quite often the law enforcement establishment you are dealing with it might work and it might not and the very act of responding might cause you more issues than it it is worth filing a complaint. I would suspect that in Albuquerque it would be worth the effort, especially for Lair members. I can think of some other scenarios where it would not be worth it. The world is a big place and particularly for citizens who are not white there have been all sorts of potholes in the road.

JulieG
Loyal Lobo fan since 1962

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 29, 2020 5:01 pm
UWS
 UWS
(@uws)
Lobo Lobo level
Posted by: @julieg

UWS, depending upon where you live and quite often the law enforcement establishment you are dealing with it might work and it might not and the very act of responding might cause you more issues than it it is worth filing a complaint. I would suspect that in Albuquerque it would be worth the effort, especially for Lair members. I can think of some other scenarios where it would not be worth it. The world is a big place and particularly for citizens who are not white there have been all sorts of potholes in the road.

I merely asked him if he ever filed a complaint because he has a valid claim. Not sure it’s fair of you to read to much into that, and definitely saying my world has elements of fantasy is a bit too much. 

I’m curious. What world do you live in that you have personal knowledge that it may not be worth it for a black person to make a complaint? 

 

This post was modified 4 days ago 7 times by UWS

"So before people start re-writing history, they should first learn what the history is." UWS

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 29, 2020 5:55 pm
brooklyn_esq
(@brooklyn_esq)
Member Admin
Posted by: @uws
Posted by: @julieg

UWS, depending upon where you live and quite often the law enforcement establishment you are dealing with it might work and it might not and the very act of responding might cause you more issues than it it is worth filing a complaint. I would suspect that in Albuquerque it would be worth the effort, especially for Lair members. I can think of some other scenarios where it would not be worth it. The world is a big place and particularly for citizens who are not white there have been all sorts of potholes in the road.

I merely asked him if he ever filed a complaint because he has a valid claim. Not sure it’s fair of you to read to much into that, and definitely saying my world has elements of fantasy is a bit too much. 

I’m curious. What world do you live in that you have personal knowledge that it may not be worth it for a black person to make a complaint? 

 

Julie can answer for herself but if asked I would answer USA in the last 4 centuries.

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 29, 2020 8:17 pm
UWS
 UWS
(@uws)
Lobo Lobo level

@brooklyn_esq

@julieg

Unmerciful1 is college educated and was on active duty in the military. He has stated so on these boards. I’m pretty sure that with his background, he would not be afraid of police reprisals in the event he decided to file a police complaint. Besides, the military and the Fed govt. would support him, and he could always retain a good attorney for extra protection. 

I asked him specifically if he had ever filed a police complaint. I was not asking any black person. Sure, I can imagine there might be some blacks somewhere in this country who might fear reprisals. But I was not speaking to just anyone. I was speaking with him. 

"So before people start re-writing history, they should first learn what the history is." UWS

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 29, 2020 8:43 pm
JulieG
(@julieg)
Contributor

I am out of this discussion. Maybe in the future you should take the discussion off line if everyone is not to be involved.

This post was modified 4 days ago by JulieG

JulieG
Loyal Lobo fan since 1962

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 29, 2020 10:58 pm
brooklyn_esq
(@brooklyn_esq)
Member Admin
Posted by: @uws

@brooklyn_esq

 

I asked him specifically if he had ever filed a police complaint. I was not asking any black person. Sure, I can imagine there might be some blacks somewhere in this country who might fear reprisals. But I was not speaking to just anyone. I was speaking with him. 

This is a general message board. You want to cross-exam a participant take it private. You are trying to limit a discussion to prove a narrow point. 

Racism in the US has boiled over into a mass movement here and overseas. Millions have hit the street. The discussion is vital and needs to be encouraged . It’s how humans solve problems. Identify the problem by wide participation, share individual and related experiences and talk about hopes and visions for a better world. When did YOU stop beating your wife is not a real line of questioning.

Will there be overreactions and mistakes, of course there will be. History is replete with them. The Three-Fifths compromise, Jim Crow,  Dred-Scott for those who like legal research. Don’t hose down and set dogs on non-violent protestors, let them speak and listen.

The contortions folks go through to maintain the status quo and continue with the familiar no matter how painful continues to impress this senior citizen. Shit has to be real bad for people to discard the  pain they know for a better unknown.

This post was modified 4 days ago by brooklyn_esq
ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 5:16 am
UWS
 UWS
(@uws)
Lobo Lobo level

For many, the BLM movement has been antagonistic, disrespectful, and in some cases, lawless. In many cases, the movement and its followers have used a broad brush to unfairly mischaracterize our country’s history and some of its historical leaders. When some have pointed out these problems and others, they have been unfairly portrayed as either outright racists or closet racists who are in denial about the plight of blacks, and as a result, are said to be living in a fantasy world. Clearly, these tactics are divisive in nature and can have horrible consequences for our country’s future. 

Our country has been built on the principles of freedom, democracy, and law and order. However, our freedoms are not without limits. Taking things to excess and taking matters into one’s own hands can be harmful. Additionally, we have a system of democracy in which to petition for change. MLK knew this well. Finally, law and order must be respected, and the legal processes including the filing of complaints should be used regardless of the consequences when one has been the victim of racism. That’s called courage. 

When the BLM movement and its followers embrace these principles, there can be true change. 

 

 

"So before people start re-writing history, they should first learn what the history is." UWS

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 11:50 am
UWS
 UWS
(@uws)
Lobo Lobo level

Posted by julieg: "I think that it is important that we try to be respectful of other's opinions whether we agree or not and to realize that there are people that do not agree with us and if we can try to just slog this out."

@uws

 "You live in a much different world than I have been exposed to."

@julieg

"How so?"

@uws

"It has all the elements of a fantasy."

@julieg

"I don't get it. What about any of this indicates that I am living in a fantasy world ?" 

@uws

"UWS, depending upon where you live and quite often the law enforcement establishment you are dealing with it might work and it might not..."

@julieg

"I’m curious. What world do you live in that you have personal knowledge that it may not be worth it for a black person to make a complaint?"

@uws

"Julie can answer for herself but if asked I would answer USA in the last 4 centuries."

@julieg; @Brooklyn_Esq.

"I asked him specifically if he had ever filed a police complaint. I was not asking any black person. Sure, I can imagine there might be some blacks somewhere in this country who might fear reprisals. But I was not speaking to just anyone. I was speaking with him. "

@uws

"I am out of this discussion. Maybe in the future you should take the discussion off line if everyone is not to be involved." 

@uws

"This is a general message board. You want to cross-exam a participant take it private. You are trying to limit a discussion to prove a narrow point." 

 

Black lives matter, but context matters too. 

This post was modified 4 days ago 7 times by UWS

"So before people start re-writing history, they should first learn what the history is." UWS

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 1:45 pm
MaxLobo
(@maxlobo)
Member

Switching directions a bit.....but for those on this board who have witnessed and experienced racism throughout their lives, I'm interested in getting opinions on the broader 'social justice warrior' initiatives that seem to in some way have infiltrated the more defined/focused movements towards anti-racism against African Americans.  Anyone paying attention is seeing how common it is now for almost anyone to get 'cancelled' based on the slightest missteps that can in any way be construed to reveal them as 'racist' (or sexist, or trans-phobic, or anti-fill-in-the-blank).  Also now, one can be cancelled for something a family member did or said.   Many times there is NO statute of limitations, and tweets/messages, recordings, etc. from many years previously can be used to demonstrate a person is not fit for woke society and should therefore lose a job, or reputation, or everything.   

I can't help but thinking many people REALLY interested in large social reforms that would help African Americans (the issues we've been discussing, ranging from Civil War statues to policing reforms, voting reforms, etc.) might be apt to reject the circus of side issues such as this performative stuff about 'outing' people for their thought crimes.  

Here was the latest such story that got me thinking a bit more about this stuff:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 2:57 pm
UNMerciful_1
(@unmerciful_1)
Pack Leader Lobo level
Posted by: @uws

@brooklyn_esq

@julieg

Unmerciful1 is college educated and was on active duty in the military. He has stated so on these boards. I’m pretty sure that with his background, he would not be afraid of police reprisals in the event he decided to file a police complaint. Besides, the military and the Fed govt. would support him, and he could always retain a good attorney for extra protection. 

I asked him specifically if he had ever filed a police complaint. I was not asking any black person. Sure, I can imagine there might be some blacks somewhere in this country who might fear reprisals. But I was not speaking to just anyone. I was speaking with him. 

If you think that's the case then you're very wrong.  Despite being college educated and in the military, I would not have felt comfortable filing a complaint against the police in my 20s and 30s.  I would feel comfortable doing that today for 2 reasons:

1.  I'm older (53) now and have more experience.

2.  I feel the climate has changed in light of the Floyd case, and any complaint against the police is more likely to be taken seriously.

I did mention earlier that on one occasion I did sue the APD.  I was 40 at the time.  I also had the means to hire an attorney which is something I'd guess most African Americans would not have the resources to do. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 3:12 pm
NMFANINOKC
(@nmfaninokc)
Member
Posted by: @unmerciful_1
Posted by: @uws

@brooklyn_esq

@julieg

Unmerciful1 is college educated and was on active duty in the military. He has stated so on these boards. I’m pretty sure that with his background, he would not be afraid of police reprisals in the event he decided to file a police complaint. Besides, the military and the Fed govt. would support him, and he could always retain a good attorney for extra protection. 

I asked him specifically if he had ever filed a police complaint. I was not asking any black person. Sure, I can imagine there might be some blacks somewhere in this country who might fear reprisals. But I was not speaking to just anyone. I was speaking with him. 

If you think that's the case then you're very wrong.  Despite being college educated and in the military, I would not have felt comfortable filing a complaint against the police in my 20s and 30s.  I would feel comfortable doing that today for 2 reasons:

1.  I'm older (53) now and have more experience.

2.  I feel the climate has changed in light of the Floyd case, and any complaint against the police is more likely to be taken seriously.

I did mention earlier that on one occasion I did sue the APD.  I was 40 at the time.  I also had the means to hire an attorney which is something I'd guess most African Americans would not have the resources to do. 

Have actually enjoyed this thread.. I think everyone has been honest and not TOO angry.. So I do have 1 question, and as I have stated, not racist in anyway, I have constantly heard, police need to do this, employers need to do this, schools need to do this, society needs to do this.. So, is there "anything" that the African American race can do to help the cause as well??  

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 3:18 pm
UNMerciful_1
(@unmerciful_1)
Pack Leader Lobo level

@MaxLobo I believe your last post is in good faith.  You have a legitimate question.  I feel it's a little bit funny though because African Americans have been judged their whole life based on something that was beyond their control.  I would submit that anyone who feels they've been unfairly cancelled now has an inkling of what it feels like to be an African American in the United States.

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 3:20 pm
MaxLobo
(@maxlobo)
Member

@unmerciful_1

Thanks for the response.  Not sure I understand, as certainly the 'fix' for injustice is not more injustice (is there any religion/philosophy in the history of man that really calls for such?)  No good comes out of that guy (in the Atlantic Story) losing his job for some reason not remotely related to the topics we've been discussing. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 3:40 pm
UWS
 UWS
(@uws)
Lobo Lobo level
Posted by: @maxlobo

Switching directions a bit.....but for those on this board who have witnessed and experienced racism throughout their lives, I'm interested in getting opinions on the broader 'social justice warrior' initiatives that seem to in some way have infiltrated the more defined/focused movements towards anti-racism against African Americans.  Anyone paying attention is seeing how common it is now for almost anyone to get 'cancelled' based on the slightest missteps that can in any way be construed to reveal them as 'racist' (or sexist, or trans-phobic, or anti-fill-in-the-blank).  Also now, one can be cancelled for something a family member did or said.   Many times there is NO statute of limitations, and tweets/messages, recordings, etc. from many years previously can be used to demonstrate a person is not fit for woke society and should therefore lose a job, or reputation, or everything.   

I can't help but thinking many people REALLY interested in large social reforms that would help African Americans (the issues we've been discussing, ranging from Civil War statues to policing reforms, voting reforms, etc.) might be apt to reject the circus of side issues such as this performative stuff about 'outing' people for their thought crimes.  

Here was the latest such story that got me thinking a bit more about this stuff:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

 

 

This mentality has existed for years IMO. It's all part of the whole PC movement that began in the 80s when mass media was born including CNN, etc.  Prior to that (e.g., the 1970s and prior), there was no way for the average person to complain or air grievances except in letters to the editor. With the advent of mass media and the internet, anyone can be heard, and it has exposed many wrongs that have been committed.

PC has changed job titles from "policeman", "postman", and "chairman" which were commonly used to the gender-neutral titles "police officer", "letter carrier" and "chairperson" or "chair" as well as with terms having broader application, such as "humankind" replacing "mankind." It was no longer PC to call a female a "girl" or a male a "boy," even though those terms were not pejorative terms. They became woman and man. Girlfriend and boyfriend have become "partner." While some of these changes have been welcomed, this new "language code" is confusing to some and woe be the person who calls a woman a "girl" even when done innocently. 

While there have been many scandals that should have and did reveal bad actors, including Tailhook in the 90s and the me too movement, the problem IMO is that mass media has taken it a step too far (out of greed for $$$), and it has created hysteria over many issues that has led to ultra sensitivity and a zero tolerance mentality.

Speaking "truth to power" was borne in the 1950s, but the PC movement has allowed truth to power to take on new fervor. Now, the goal of many is to expose the faults of those in power, and bring them down. This would not possible without certain leaders and politicians who have an "open door policy" and willingly champion certain liberal causes, even when the claimant has lied or misrepresented the facts in order to achieve their agenda. 

The result of all this has been censorship in various forms which stifles communication. Families do not talk about politics or religion anymore. Pretty much any comment can be labeled racist or sexist, so in the workplace, people, especially supervisors, need to watch what they say or else the PC police, those ultra sensitive types, will go around their back and report them.

 

 

 

 

"So before people start re-writing history, they should first learn what the history is." UWS

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 3:45 pm
UWS
 UWS
(@uws)
Lobo Lobo level
Posted by: @unmerciful_1
Posted by: @uws

@brooklyn_esq

@julieg

Unmerciful1 is college educated and was on active duty in the military. He has stated so on these boards. I’m pretty sure that with his background, he would not be afraid of police reprisals in the event he decided to file a police complaint. Besides, the military and the Fed govt. would support him, and he could always retain a good attorney for extra protection. 

I asked him specifically if he had ever filed a police complaint. I was not asking any black person. Sure, I can imagine there might be some blacks somewhere in this country who might fear reprisals. But I was not speaking to just anyone. I was speaking with him. 

If you think that's the case then you're very wrong.  Despite being college educated and in the military, I would not have felt comfortable filing a complaint against the police in my 20s and 30s.  I would feel comfortable doing that today for 2 reasons:

1.  I'm older (53) now and have more experience.

2.  I feel the climate has changed in light of the Floyd case, and any complaint against the police is more likely to be taken seriously.

I did mention earlier that on one occasion I did sue the APD.  I was 40 at the time.  I also had the means to hire an attorney which is something I'd guess most African Americans would not have the resources to do. 

Well, this is what you said in an earlier post on this thread, "Police in LA county pulled over my car at 1 in the afternoon with me and 3 other black guys inside. We were all in the Navy at the time and our ship had just docked in Long Beach for the first time. Being new to the area we decided to drive around and check out the area. We were driving in a very nice residential area when we were pulled over. I feel comfortable saying the police weren't asking us why we were there because they thought we might be coming from a bar at 1pm...I did not file any complaints. Most of the driving while black stops happened when I was in my 20s. I didn't feel a complaint by me would do anything to change things. I would most definitely make a complaint today."

There is no hint anywhere here that you were concerned for your safety if you had filed a complaint.  

"So before people start re-writing history, they should first learn what the history is." UWS

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 3:50 pm
UNM Class of1972
(@unm-class-of-1972)
Pack Leader
Posted by: @uws
Posted by: @maxlobo

Switching directions a bit.....but for those on this board who have witnessed and experienced racism throughout their lives, I'm interested in getting opinions on the broader 'social justice warrior' initiatives that seem to in some way have infiltrated the more defined/focused movements towards anti-racism against African Americans.  Anyone paying attention is seeing how common it is now for almost anyone to get 'cancelled' based on the slightest missteps that can in any way be construed to reveal them as 'racist' (or sexist, or trans-phobic, or anti-fill-in-the-blank).  Also now, one can be cancelled for something a family member did or said.   Many times there is NO statute of limitations, and tweets/messages, recordings, etc. from many years previously can be used to demonstrate a person is not fit for woke society and should therefore lose a job, or reputation, or everything.   

I can't help but thinking many people REALLY interested in large social reforms that would help African Americans (the issues we've been discussing, ranging from Civil War statues to policing reforms, voting reforms, etc.) might be apt to reject the circus of side issues such as this performative stuff about 'outing' people for their thought crimes.  

Here was the latest such story that got me thinking a bit more about this stuff:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

 

 

This mentality has existed for years IMO. It's all part of the whole PC movement that began in the 80s when mass media was born including CNN, etc.  Prior to that (e.g., the 1970s and prior), there was no way for the average person to complain or air grievances except in letters to the editor. With the advent of mass media and the internet, anyone can be heard, and it has exposed many wrongs that have been committed.

PC has changed job titles from "policeman", "postman", and "chairman" which were commonly used to the gender-neutral titles "police officer", "letter carrier" and "chairperson" or "chair" as well as with terms having broader application, such as "humankind" replacing "mankind." It was no longer PC to call a female a "girl" or a male a "boy," even though those terms were not pejorative terms. They became woman and man. Girlfriend and boyfriend have become "partner." While some of these changes have been welcomed, this new "language code" is confusing to some and woe be the person who calls a woman a "girl" even when done innocently. 

While there have been many scandals that should have and did reveal bad actors, including Tailhook in the 90s and the me too movement, the problem IMO is that mass media has taken it a step too far (out of greed for $$$), and it has created hysteria over many issues that has led to ultra sensitivity and a zero tolerance mentality.

Speaking "truth to power" was borne in the 1950s, but the PC movement has allowed truth to power to take on new fervor. Now, the goal of many is to expose the faults of those in power, and bring them down. This would not possible without certain leaders and politicians who have an "open door policy" and willingly champion certain liberal causes, even when the claimant has lied or misrepresented the facts in order to achieve their agenda. 

The result of all this has been censorship in various forms which stifles communication. Families do not talk about politics or religion anymore. Pretty much any comment can be labeled racist or sexist, so in the workplace, people, especially supervisors, need to watch what they say or else the PC police, those ultra sensitive types, will go around their back and report them.

 

 

 

 

I was a history major so do not lecture me about history.  You seem to have a lot of opinions like everyone else. I went to UNM in the late 60's and early 70's and we were much like the students of today. Many of us  wanted to get rid of confederate statues back then, too.  That was about 50 years ago. Why are many still around? After 50 years I got a little pleasure seeing the demonstrators fight for some of the same things we fought for. 

So you want to call  letter carriers mailmen again. A lot of people who go on these PC rants like you just did would also like to use certain derogatory names like they use to.  Personally, I never liked Polish jokes or even Espanola jokes. Fortunately, I no longer hear them.  I guess that makes me PC.  

By the way the "PC movement' started long before Ted Turner ever though about creating CNN. Do your homework, whipper snapper! 

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 4:17 pm
MaxLobo
(@maxlobo)
Member
Posted by: @uws
Posted by: @maxlobo

Switching directions a bit.....but for those on this board who have witnessed and experienced racism throughout their lives, I'm interested in getting opinions on the broader 'social justice warrior' initiatives that seem to in some way have infiltrated the more defined/focused movements towards anti-racism against African Americans.  Anyone paying attention is seeing how common it is now for almost anyone to get 'cancelled' based on the slightest missteps that can in any way be construed to reveal them as 'racist' (or sexist, or trans-phobic, or anti-fill-in-the-blank).  Also now, one can be cancelled for something a family member did or said.   Many times there is NO statute of limitations, and tweets/messages, recordings, etc. from many years previously can be used to demonstrate a person is not fit for woke society and should therefore lose a job, or reputation, or everything.   

I can't help but thinking many people REALLY interested in large social reforms that would help African Americans (the issues we've been discussing, ranging from Civil War statues to policing reforms, voting reforms, etc.) might be apt to reject the circus of side issues such as this performative stuff about 'outing' people for their thought crimes.  

Here was the latest such story that got me thinking a bit more about this stuff:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

 

 

This mentality has existed for years IMO. It's all part of the whole PC movement that began in the 80s when mass media was born including CNN, etc.  Prior to that (e.g., the 1970s and prior), there was no way for the average person to complain or air grievances except in letters to the editor. With the advent of mass media and the internet, anyone can be heard, and it has exposed many wrongs that have been committed.

PC has changed job titles from "policeman", "postman", and "chairman" which were commonly used to the gender-neutral titles "police officer", "letter carrier" and "chairperson" or "chair" as well as with terms having broader application, such as "humankind" replacing "mankind." It was no longer PC to call a female a "girl" or a male a "boy," even though those terms were not pejorative terms. They became woman and man. Girlfriend and boyfriend have become "partner." While some of these changes have been welcomed, this new "language code" is confusing to some and woe be the person who calls a woman a "girl" even when done innocently. 

While there have been many scandals that should have and did reveal bad actors, including Tailhook in the 90s and the me too movement, the problem IMO is that mass media has taken it a step too far (out of greed for $$$), and it has created hysteria over many issues that has led to ultra sensitivity and a zero tolerance mentality.

Speaking "truth to power" was borne in the 1950s, but the PC movement has allowed truth to power to take on new fervor. Now, the goal of many is to expose the faults of those in power, and bring them down. This would not possible without certain leaders and politicians who have an "open door policy" and willingly champion certain liberal causes, even when the claimant has lied or misrepresented the facts in order to achieve their agenda. 

The result of all this has been censorship in various forms which stifles communication. Families do not talk about politics or religion anymore. Pretty much any comment can be labeled racist or sexist, so in the workplace, people, especially supervisors, need to watch what they say or else the PC police, those ultra sensitive types, will go around their back and report them.

 

 

 

 

Well, the advent of more online platforms that seem to capture people's each and every thought....to be chronicled online for eternity, is an aggravating factor.   But the whole thing seems to be in lockstep with 'trigger' culture (something I attributed almost entirely to upwardly mobile youngsters in college a few years ago, and now perhaps spreading beyond) as for instance we saw the NYT 'news' department essentially sack the editor recently over publishing of a Senator's (invited) essay (like it or not, since when does the NYT bow to the demands of the 'woke'....portend of bad things to come, I'm afraid).    

Anyway, more of my point is that it all seems like a performative 'side show' to the larger and more important issues, and likely takes away the focus from those issues.  I would not think that seriously aggrieved parties (looking for serious social change, for instance police reform, judicial system reform, etc.) would have much of an appetite for this type of dip-shittery. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 4:21 pm
UWS
 UWS
(@uws)
Lobo Lobo level

@maxlobo

I agree. Just providing context. 

"So before people start re-writing history, they should first learn what the history is." UWS

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 4:39 pm
UWS
 UWS
(@uws)
Lobo Lobo level
Posted by: @unm-class-of-1972
Posted by: @uws
Posted by: @maxlobo

Switching directions a bit.....but for those on this board who have witnessed and experienced racism throughout their lives, I'm interested in getting opinions on the broader 'social justice warrior' initiatives that seem to in some way have infiltrated the more defined/focused movements towards anti-racism against African Americans.  Anyone paying attention is seeing how common it is now for almost anyone to get 'cancelled' based on the slightest missteps that can in any way be construed to reveal them as 'racist' (or sexist, or trans-phobic, or anti-fill-in-the-blank).  Also now, one can be cancelled for something a family member did or said.   Many times there is NO statute of limitations, and tweets/messages, recordings, etc. from many years previously can be used to demonstrate a person is not fit for woke society and should therefore lose a job, or reputation, or everything.   

I can't help but thinking many people REALLY interested in large social reforms that would help African Americans (the issues we've been discussing, ranging from Civil War statues to policing reforms, voting reforms, etc.) might be apt to reject the circus of side issues such as this performative stuff about 'outing' people for their thought crimes.  

Here was the latest such story that got me thinking a bit more about this stuff:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

 

 

This mentality has existed for years IMO. It's all part of the whole PC movement that began in the 80s when mass media was born including CNN, etc.  Prior to that (e.g., the 1970s and prior), there was no way for the average person to complain or air grievances except in letters to the editor. With the advent of mass media and the internet, anyone can be heard, and it has exposed many wrongs that have been committed.

PC has changed job titles from "policeman", "postman", and "chairman" which were commonly used to the gender-neutral titles "police officer", "letter carrier" and "chairperson" or "chair" as well as with terms having broader application, such as "humankind" replacing "mankind." It was no longer PC to call a female a "girl" or a male a "boy," even though those terms were not pejorative terms. They became woman and man. Girlfriend and boyfriend have become "partner." While some of these changes have been welcomed, this new "language code" is confusing to some and woe be the person who calls a woman a "girl" even when done innocently. 

While there have been many scandals that should have and did reveal bad actors, including Tailhook in the 90s and the me too movement, the problem IMO is that mass media has taken it a step too far (out of greed for $$$), and it has created hysteria over many issues that has led to ultra sensitivity and a zero tolerance mentality.

Speaking "truth to power" was borne in the 1950s, but the PC movement has allowed truth to power to take on new fervor. Now, the goal of many is to expose the faults of those in power, and bring them down. This would not possible without certain leaders and politicians who have an "open door policy" and willingly champion certain liberal causes, even when the claimant has lied or misrepresented the facts in order to achieve their agenda. 

The result of all this has been censorship in various forms which stifles communication. Families do not talk about politics or religion anymore. Pretty much any comment can be labeled racist or sexist, so in the workplace, people, especially supervisors, need to watch what they say or else the PC police, those ultra sensitive types, will go around their back and report them.

 

 

 

 

I was a history major so do not lecture me about history.  You seem to have a lot of opinions like everyone else. I went to UNM in the late 60's and early 70's and we were much like the students of today. Many of us  wanted to get rid of confederate statues back then, too.  That was about 50 years ago. Why are many still around? After 50 years I got a little pleasure seeing the demonstrators fight for some of the same things we fought for. 

So you want to call  letter carriers mailmen again. A lot of people who go on these PC rants like you just did would also like to use certain derogatory names like they use to.  Personally, I never liked Polish jokes or even Espanola jokes. Fortunately, I no longer hear them.  I guess that makes me PC.  

By the way the "PC movement' started long before Ted Turner ever though about creating CNN. Do your homework, whipper snapper! 

PC in its modern sense began in the 80s or a bit before. Political activism is, of course, much older. I will provide sources.

And by the way, it’s only a lecture or a rant if you read it and interpret it that way. 

"So before people start re-writing history, they should first learn what the history is." UWS

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 4:48 pm
UNMerciful_1
(@unmerciful_1)
Pack Leader Lobo level

@OKC The change has to come from people in power.  The slave did not have the power to secure his freedom.. The white man in charge had to do that.  African Americans as a group do not have the power to change things on their own.  However, there are many African Americans with means, and I think it's their responsibility to give back to the black community.  Fortunately, I believe that most do.  LeBron James, Oprah Winfrey, Robert Smith and Daymond John are examples of African Americans giving back to their community.  Even Michael Jordan, who has taken a lot of criticism for not taking a more public stance has done a lot behind the scenes.

I personally plan to start a scholarship for an African American from my hometown in Virginia to UNM when I have the means to do so.  I suspect that will be in the next 10 to 15 years.  I also invest in a lot of companies.  I have recently started to hold these companies accountable if they have a lack of diversity.  I will not vote for a companies board of directors if they are not diverse, and I will let them no the reason for my vote.  I've also been requesting sustainability reports from companies so I can see what they're doing when it comes to increasing diversity in their ranks.  An example of a company that's doing a good job is Square.  They are a tech company.  When they look at resumes they omit the name of the applicant, so they don't know their race or gender.  The results have been that they have one the highest percentages of racial minorities and women for a company in the tech space. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : June 30, 2020 5:12 pm
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